This episode was produced by Nicole Kelly and hosted by Kaitlin Prest.
Affirmations: “That Blackness” by Nina Simone & “Uses of the Erotic” by Audre Lorde. Music: “Good Times” by Audiobinger, “True Blue Sky” by Blue Dot Sessions, and “The Healing” by Sergey Cheremisinov.
transcript
Kaitlin Prest:
From Mermaid Palace and Radiotopia, welcome to The Heart, I'm Kaitlin Prest.
On The Heart, when we make a series that's about something related to trauma or issues that are triggering or really hard to represent like sexual abuse, assault, abuses of power, and like NK's most recent series, Divesting from People Pleasing, which if you haven't listened to it yet, you should definitely go back a few episodes and listen to the whole thing. After making episodes like these, what we like to do is have an episode where we basically just process everything that we just heard and to step outside of art land and representation land and to just very frankly, openly and honestly discuss all of the issues that were represented in the episodes so that we can, you know, have a debrief or analyze and dismantle some of the big ideas or intense feelings that emerged in the you know, in the episodes.
So that's what this episode is. We're having a roundtable chat with NK and a bunch of her super smart friends. Here's NK… [gentle piano music that sounds uplifting and a little wistful]
Nicole Kelly (NK):
Hey y'all. It's NK. And this is the follow up episode to Divesting from People Pleasing the series.
Thanks so much to everyone who has shared the series or written to us about it, shared your own artwork or writing in response to the series. It's really dope to hear how it's resonating with people. We — that's me, Chiquita and KP — really appreciate it.
I know I'm echoing a lot of people in movement spaces when I say that we can't seek to end harmful systems of oppression or to end abuse in the world without first paying attention to some of the ways that we have harmful and abusive relationships with ourselves. My hope for this series is that it makes everyone feel more free to talk about your own shame or your struggles with mental health or anxiety or self-loathing. Because I think that the more we talk about these things, our shame and our vulnerabilities, the less it will be stigmatized to talk about them and without that stigma, it will make it easier to seek the care and healing that we, queer people, people of color especially need. I really wanted to bring in the perspective of a mental health professional. So later in this episode, you'll hear my interview with Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis, who's a licensed psychologist, ordained minister and artist based in LA, whose podcast is called The Homecoming. But first I talk with my good friends, Kamala and Asha, about how people pleasing has impacted them.
NK:
Kamala Puligandla is the deputy editor of the online lez publication Autostraddle. Her novel Zigzags Drops this fall. And Asha Grant is the founder of the Free Black Woman's Library Los Angeles. And as my esteemed co-minister of the erotic in the Church of Audre Lorde, which we founded.
So you're both obviously brilliant, very well dressed and you both were at the listening session last fall where I played all three episodes when they were still under construction and we had a really productive conversation about, like what I was trying to do and what was happening and what was working, what wasn't working. Do you all want to introduce yourselves in addition to, like, what I already said?
Asha:
I'm going to give my, like, anti-LA intro, which actually has nothing to do with, like the work that I do. So actually, I am going to do a little bit of the work that I do. I, I am a hood librarian. I'm also a co-minister of the erotic. I'm an advocate for eating rich people. And I am a Black girl.
And I'm a queer Black girl.
All:
Yeah, yeah, the cutest!
Kamala:
I'm Kamala, I don't know. I don't know how to introduce myself. I like to talk to people. That's like one of my biggest skills.
NK:
[laughs] Conversing.
Kamala:
Being in conversation, I feel like I'm perpetually in conversation and I use a lot of it for my writing. So I feel like my writing is like the product of many of the conversations that I have. And this particular like my relationship with NK has produced a lot of work between the two of us I think also and like we've been in conversation about many things that have been in the podcast.
NK:
OK. So before we start recording I was talking about how when I first started talking about this idea, divesting from people pleasing and like named to the series that, that I felt like some people had an immediate idea like what they thought I meant by people pleasing.
And then I found that to me the idea that people often had felt really tied to like specifically like white femininity. And I was like a lot of things that are being talked about are that I'm thinking about are that are like sort of like gender things having to do with like how we regulate, like our bodies or voices in space or how we respond to patriarchy, patriarchal conditioning. But I was like, it's just like a lot. There's a lot more going on for me that I will try to get into. And I'm just curious, like for you also like the concept of people pleasing. What does it bring up for you? Like, what does it mean, like your lived experience in life?
Asha:
Can I start, please? Okay. Cause I as you were talking, I was thinking about the ways that people pleasing is like a generational thing, at least in my family, especially, I think within, for Black women. A lot of times that's like a part of your survival. And um, I was thinking about when I was growing up and my grandmother would take me shopping to like Macy's or like a department store. And before we would leave the house, you'd be like, okay, you need to change your clothes. Like, make sure that you're dressed well so that when we go to this store, like people want to, you know, serve us, like you know wait on us. And like, I'm like a child who grew up in the 90s. And so this sounds very like 1960s, like conversation. And it. And also, I grew up in Los Angeles. And so just thinking about the ways that, like from a child, I understood, like people pleasing in a way that really had nothing to do with like the immediate like one on one interaction where I have to make a decision to people please. It was sort of like almost like a daily strategy, sort of, that was more uh, it wasn't as intense as like, oh, someone's asking you to do something and you just say yes because you feel pressured to and you want them to think that you're. Yeah. Polite or you have the capacity to do it or that whatever. This was like a very like, normalized and like you like how do you want to say like insidious like just like another, It was like underneath our skin I guess. Yeah. That's what I was thinking about as you were talking.
NK:
Yeah. I think what you just said brought up two things for me. One was like recently also in Los Angeles, like two years ago, I was having to go to a gynecological specialist and I like have, I'm on medi-cal, so I don't have a lot of options, as far as like where I get to choose to go. And it was hard for me to find a gynecologist who was a woman which I really wanted. And I wound up going to this place in Chinatown here. And all of that same stuff that you're talking about as far as like the strategy, basically the first time I went I was really not treated well, it was actually like an extremely traumatic experience. And I had to go back two more times on the subsequent visits I just remember being so fucked up over the fact that I was like getting dressed like strategizing exactly how you describe kind of like, what do I need to do to have these people treat me like a professional adult woman and not treat me the way they treated me the first time I was there? The first I was there and I wasn't sure, like, is it cause I'm on Medi-cal? Is it because I'm Black? I mean all these things are going through my mind. I was thinking of like, even the history of gynecology is like tied to the abuse of Black women and the trauma of Black women, like all of that was like going through my mind as I was like ready to go to the gynecologist to have this like invasive procedure, like that's the shit that I'm, that we’re talking about.
Asha:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Kamala:
Do you think in some way, like the whole dressing up thing and like the considering what you're gonna look like, it's like to differentiate oneself from whatever the expectation might be? Yeah. Is it to defy an expectation or to, like, show? I don't know. Like, I'm trying to figure out. Like, I. I do think that, like, yeah, there's like a whole respectability thing. Like, my family for sure. Also does, like, you can't wear like, my mom's underwear outside, like there used to be like pajama days at my high school and my mom would be like you cannot wear underwear outside. And I was like, yeah okay, there's some of that. And some of it is being like, we're not going to be like these, like whatever. Like I think in my family, it's like we're not going to look like the immigrants that you think we are.
NK:
I think it's similar. Yeah. And I think also, I wonder if you this resonates with you. Is that the other thing I felt when you were talking also was about for me and my mom, like I grew up in Tennessee and like a in a military community, so it was pretty multicultural. But where I always looked like my mom always wanted to live in like these particular neighborhoods. Like, that were definitely not.
And so I grew up like around a lot of like white kids who were acting who would like wear pajamas to school. Like, who could just kind of be free to do whatever. And I think, like, I wanted to like, just be like the people around me and like that felt normal to me. But my mom, I think I could see now, looking back like her conflict over being like, I want to like police you. like I don't want you to, like, leave the house looking how you look right now, but also like part of like what I'm trying to give you is the opportunity to do whatever the fuck you want. Like everyone else. And leave like, you know, you look right. And so she would like, let me do it. She'd like would let me leave. I would look crazy all. But like she let me do it. Yeah. But also she would always comment on it I could tell that it really, she didn't, it didn't sit well with her. You know, I think the I'm just having some a moment of like I guess compassion for her having to like navigate those two things.
Asha:
Yeah. I think the thing. Yeah. Because I think about those moments with my grandmother, a lot and even with my mom, who was always like, stop trying to look homeless or like stop trying to look like you're, you know, on drugs. And I was like, it's just a flannel. [laughter]
Like like, oh, I get to literally be like, I hate this world. And that's okay. Literally. It's just a flannel and jeans and vans like relax but. But yeah. And my mom giving me a lot of really conflicting messages about clothes, people myself and like her always being like, oh, you should be really proud to be Black or you should be really proud to be who you are.
And then when I am feeling proud, you know, making me not feel like shit. Yeah. And I'm thinking too about like. My having compassion for that and understanding like you just want what's quote unquote best for me or whatever, but also it's like this overarching idea that, like, we can strategize our way out of oppression that other people inflict on us. And like that, there's like a cheat code. And even though I think we.
Kamala:
There's like an easy way. Yeah. Like, this is the easy way. Yeah. to try not to encounter like, too much extra friction.
Asha:
Right, even though it's like we all know it doesn't work but, It's like, it's like what else do people have I guess in trying to like hold on to whatever agency they think they might have. But I don't know.
NK:
Yeah. I mean, yes. Like one thing I definitely was wanting to touch on, I had to cut a lot of it out of a series in my first episode was talking about, like my strategies my parents were using in their case. I feel like class and the accumulation of like wealth was like their their way of trying to access liberation or something. And I was like definitely trying to show them like these things do not work.
Asha:
No, uh, We know this.
NK:
I was like, I see what you tried to do. I got it. I appreciate it. But it didn't work. It doesn't protect me. It didn't protect me at all from any of it, you know.
And I think, again, now that I'm like older and the kind of especially like for me, there's kind of like life before divesting from people. See, there's like life afterwards, to be totally honest. Like, I feel like.
Kamala:
Oh my god, That's pretty cool.
NK:
Yeah, like I think I said on the series, things I have never said to anyone ever, except maybe like very recently before, like my therapist. But like that was in the last two years, I was like just revealing myself in these certain ways. And so now that it is in the world, I feel like just extremely liberated and just kind of like. Everyone knows all the shit that I was like the most ashamed of, like it's recorded. It's like in the world, you know, I know that everyone at the Ralphs down the street hasn't like heard the series. Like, I can pretend that they have and feel like I've got nothing to hide from you. And that's it's very freeing. And I've been thinking a lot more about, like, my ability to access, like joy, like Black girl joy now and like and I find it in these moments that we were talking about where I'm kind of like just being utterly like my emo ass alternative self you know [laughs] like, but kind of like letting myself be that person that my mom, like, was afraid for me to be or whatever, that is like the protective.
That is the strategy, is like being, leaning into your, your selfhood. Not into like the protective.
Kamala:
I do want to talk about this idea of protection though, because I do think that that's also what the, the pleasing is about. Right. Like we learn it as a form of protection.
And I was like listening to on my way over here the last episode in the series where you just start talking about like grandmothers and how they were raised and how mothers were raised and everyone gets passed down the stuff and like in their DNA. And I do think that, like, a lot of the things that we learn are like supposed to be for our own protection and that like, I don't know, like I'm like, what is what has changed? Like, is it just that, like, I no longer feel protected by that? Or is it that, like, I feel empowered enough to like no longer need that kind of protection? Like I don't really know what feels different for me because like I also similarly learned all these things about my dad was like going insane when I first cut my hair like this. And that was like so long ago now. And he was like, no one's gonna hire you. And like, people are going to harass you on the street. And I was like, yeah, I guess people will visibly be able to see that I'm gay. But like, my life is like so much better because people can visibly see that I'm gay. Like, it's such a weird and I guess like maybe that is more dangerous. And maybe as my parent that feels scarier.
NK:
Can you talk a little bit about — just for the listeners at home — you are not Black.
Kamala:
Oh yeah, I, I'm not Black. I am South Asian. I'm Indian and Japanese.
NK:
Okay, yeah.
Asha:
And it is important to know because a lot of times you don't know who's speaking and that context is so important. Yeah.
NK:
Yeah. One of the reasons I asked Kamala to join the conversation was one because we have had a lot of conversations like this about being, about the both, the both-and-ness. and like being in-between-ness and I feel sort of in between cultures sometimes still even now, but also because like we got some letters from people who I feel who have similar stories to yours and who I felt like would really resonate with the series reason that I was like, I totally get why this speaks to, even though, you know, it's kind of a little bit different then what I'm talking about but. But there's some overlap.
Kamala:
Blackness is, I think, like a very different situation. But I do think that we all share like a space together and sometimes there's some overlapping experiences.
Asha:
Can I add a quick anecdote thing cuz I'm thinking, too, about, like a part of my understanding of people pleasing, obviously have a lot to do with, like, what people you're trying to please at the moment. And like, who are the people who hold the value in your space? And so I didn't really grow up around a lot of white people. And so people pleasing, like my grandmother telling me, like we need to dress this way was so foreign to me. I was like, I don't understand why. Because I, but, like, she was raised around, like, a lot of white people. And so, like in my community where I was growing up, like Black boys were the people that I wanted to please and spaces. And the people who held a lot of value. And they were the ones that were like just were able to like really capitalize on, like the Black cool that people talk about, a lot of times was really geared towards, like them, their experiences, like the way that they dress, like the things that they said. And for Black girls, it was really difficult for us to tap into that coolness.
So, yeah, I just remember being in class and seeing boys, Black boys say anything like literally anything like it could be like somebody said something. Then there's a pause and then they're like, naw, and everybody just like busts up laughing. And I would just be sitting there like, this is not even that funny I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but like, I too have a personality. And I just really was like, these niggas are not really that great. But like, they get to like they get to enjoy like all of the things that, like Blackness has allowed us to enjoy with just like creativity and like they get to have the space to just move around. And like even in and it's not to say that Black boys are not confined by societal like restrictions because, obviously they are. But um, but I do think that, like, their being boys just afforded them a different kind of freedom and a lot of spaces. And so, yeah. So growing up, it was really important to me that Black boys saw me as somebody that was valuable and somebody that was like, um like I said, I already knew I wasn't going to have access to white femininity. So like being that girl, like I shut that down quickly. And I think too often about like, did I become the person I am from that, you know, like, I really do love hip-hop. I really do love Biggie. I love doing, I love all that shit. And I'm like was that me or was that me trying to become someone that Black men thought could, like, navigate both spaces and be this and be that?
Kamala:
I mean, I do know it's interesting because I do feel like for me personally, I'm like I feel like I naturally just like don't fit any of the, like, ideals of what femininity looks. -Very few people do right. Like not most people do. But I feel like I also spent like some time in my youth, like being like, obviously this is not going to work out for me. If this were a path that I were trying to go down, that's just not going to work. And I think particularly when I think of like related to like my ethnicity is like the way that Asian people are valued is by being like slight and like conforming. And like, like my hair when it's long is like highly valued because it's like thick because it's Indian, but like straight because it's Japanese. And everyone's like when I cut it off, everyone was like, you should have saved it to like sell for wigs or something. And I was like, that's like that isn't saying that like the value of the body is attached to like all these commodified, like colonized ways that like my body has been introduced to like the Western world. So I do think about that. And then I think also, like it's part of my personality then, is like a living in a body that, like, doesn't fit. Right. So, like, I think I'm like, yeah, like, was I funny when, like am I just a funny person or has that just been a way for a long time of me to be like, here's some other value to tell you how to value me. That is not about, I don't know, something would be related to how my body should be expected to be.
NK:
[exhales] Yeah. I feel like I use academics and intellect to attempt to do that as well, when I was younger, like I was such a perfectionist and I was like, so, so, so much anxiety around performing well in school. I think that related to being like this is the value I can bring you know, because I'm not funny. [laughs]
Asha:
Yeah. No, I think about people like that with myself. Like personality traits where I'm like, you think you know who you are and why you do these things. But a lot of this shit comes from like insecurities and trying to you're it's almost like your body trying to reach like homeostasis.
Kamala:
You're like, I need to find a balance in here.
All:
Yeah. So it's like, yeah.
NK:
Yeah. I love that, I think that I is actually a perfect segue to the last point I want to make, which is that this morning I was relistening to almost there the book that I mentioned before, Sister Citizen, that was sort of like foundational to the first episode. Sister Citizen is like sort of an exploration of like Patricia Hill Collins idea of controlling images and shame and how that works and like among Black women. But she's talking about like this idea of the crooked room, like a study that she read where, do you know about this? [someone says no] Yeah. Where she's like saying like there's like all your presented. Like there's, there's an actual study that has the thing is like a neurological study of like whether you can whether if you're in or you're actually enough physical space where, like, things are tilting, that what certain percentage of people can figure out how to, like, be upright in that space. And some people will be sitting like at a 45 degree angle in their chair and they'll think that they're upright. And it's kind of like that was what the study was observing. But she's sort of saying, like this idea of the crooked room is that like as Black women go through the world, you're presented with all these like crooked images of yourself, some of which, you know, the mammy, the Jezebel, those kind of things, like those would be considered, some of those images and that you see.You're presented with these images and they kind of distort how you see yourself or how you like, think of yourself. And I was thinking about, like the process of divesting from people pleasing or like of adulting really just being a process of trying to constantly right yourself. Like trying to find that balance or to find that like where like where is actually home, like what is me and like what is everything else. And I feel like I just kind of, I'm making this motion with my hand that's like a metronome or something as I feel like I'm just constantly like swinging back and forth and just like trying to. And all these moments I'm like, I'm in the center. I found it. And like, that's those moments I said like. I felt like when I understand, like what what actual joy feels like, like that's those moments that they don't they're not constant. But, I'm definitely feeling them like more I feel more in the center now than I ever have felt before.
Asha:
That's so exciting.
NK:
I know.
Kamala:
That's amazing. I do think of it as like a pendulum like that, because, like, you change the world changes everything’s sort of moving.
Kamala:
I don't know. I guess I think of adulthood as like the as I get further into it, like all the different identities that I have like, I can, like, sort of like hold them closer. Yes. Yeah.
Asha:
I think, too, like finding because I think we've got to like what you're searching for and I think all of us are searching for it is like there's like a reckoning sort of. Because like I think about me and like colonizer bops and like my white tbt playlist and like, you know, this colony [laughs] colonizer music is so fucking good. It's like it's a way for me to, like, do the both-and. And I'm like I'm like I'm really like people who know me. Like I'm I don't play when it comes to white supremacy, but I'm also like, and a part of that not playing is like naming it. Yeah. And so like naming like yes. This is all like colonizer stuff but like it's, and I love it and it's mine, now. [laughs]
NK:
I think you're so right. I think you're getting at something that I also think about a lot as far as adulting and stuff integration, I sometimes feel like, I know people have a relationship to Blackness and whiteness that feels sort of.... [NK's voice fades out as introspective music fades in]
Kaitlin Prest:
Please forgive this brief interruption. We'll be right back.
Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis:
I'm Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis, a licensed psychologist with a focus in trauma recovery and I'm a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University and an ordained elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
NK:
Licensed psychologist Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis is the host of a podcast called The Homecoming, which is a show about the concept of coming home to yourself. It's largely informed by the wisdom and experiences of Black women and Black Feminist thought. Dr. Thema gave me some time at her office in the Valley and we got into a conference room and just started talking and then I had to scramble to turn the mic on, so that's what you're hearing at the beginning. [laughter]
NK:
Um, go ahead.
Dr. Thema:
The reality of liberation is an internal journey, and ah, but it's a contextualized internal journey. So what is happening outside of us definitely has an impact, but it is internalized oppression, when we start to wear those chains and think of those chains as our identity so much to the point where we're not even clear we're wearing them. We say this is just me. I'm just like this. And so when we can get the revelation, this isn't me. This isn't me.
This is how I have been shaped. This is how I have survived. But it is not me. And the amazing thing is this free me that I don't know is the authentic me, even though I don't know her.
Yeah. I'm excited that you have been on that journey and that you're sharing that with your listeners because it is empowering. And so many times we are looking for those outside of us to fill us. And when we discover we have a well that we have been talked out of, that has been hidden from us when we discover the well that we've been carrying. And I know that as a girl, as a girl, I had a deep, deep well. And the experiences disconnected me from that truth and then continued experiences, continue to teach us that we are empty.
And the reality is we are full.
NK:
I love that. [NK and Dr. Thema laugh]
NK:
That makes me think of well one, that makes me think of course, like what I think what I really wanna talk to you about is just the concept of homecoming, which is the name of your podcast and how that shows up in your work. But also, I'm really, I'm really obsessed with the essay Uses of the Erotic by Audre Lorde. Do you know that essay? Yeah. So I thought about that as well when you're talking about that like deep inner well, it's become like it almost feels like it is my affirmation, you know, that I return to.
Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis:
Absolutely. And that's the beauty of sacred work. And being a sacred artist is there are layers. There are levels to this. So you can return to it and say, I thought I had it, but now I get it on another level, as an artist, we censor less. Right. And when you are all buttoned up in censoring and trying to predict what other people want to hear, it cuts us off from our power. And so, you know, the incredible artist is one who, who is released, who, who lives out loud. And then, as you described with your experience, suddenly discovers I'm not the only one. You know that we have all been living buttoned up and then it is contagious. Freedom is contagious. And when people are in the presence of a free woman, it frees them.
NK:
Yeah.
Dr. Thema:
Yes. So that is the gift of this podcast. And in my podcast, I called it Homecoming. And it is the journey home to ourselves because many of us are wandering. And I would say in particular women, that as girls, while there is a beauty in relationship, there's a beauty in community, there's a beauty in family. Sometimes those things have been used as tools of erasure where it is not real relationship if I'm not present. If I am only in service of another. And so I can lose myself in the hunt to be chosen. To be seen. To be heard. And it's no coincidence that people talk about Black girls and Black women being so loud that while we are simultaneously loud, we are very much unheard.
Which is a part of the loudness, is, can you hear me? Can you hear me?
And the desire to be heard and to be seen can cause us to adapt, adjust, modify ourselves, to present ourselves in ways that we feel will be, not only accepted, but celebrated. And that is not a figment of our imagination. The lack of celebration that exists for those who reflect us. And so the more I am disconnected from myself, the more disempowered I am. The more depressed I will be, the more anxious I will be, because there is no grounding. And I am looking for something to give me ground to give me air to give me life, to give me identity. And when I release the fantasy that someone else or something else will complete me and I come home to myself. It ends up shifting everything. It changes how, how I think about me, affects how I operate in the world.
And so it will change my work, my art, my relationships, my spirituality, because I am actually good with me. And that is the journey. And the beginning of that journey requires knowing I'm not at home.
And often we don't know it, especially when we have been talked out of homebase as children. Then we have grown up in this disconnected way. And can I say we are even rewarded for being these disconnected beings, especially those of us who are over achievers who intellectualize. And so we can perform. And when you perform well, people will praise you. But with that perfectionism comes dissatisfaction. And so people around you will be impressed and you will be empty. And so when we discover it really is not about my works. It is about my being, that I am enough. And that goes counter to our training. Our training is we have to be more and do more and and hustle and grind and lean in.
NK:
Like prove that you're enough.
Dr. Thema:
Yeah, you know, you need to lose sleep and you need to be impressive and you need to, all of these things to to be halfway enough. And that's how we're walking around with this imposter syndrome while at the same time pretending we believe we're amazing. Which is why in psychology we give self-esteem measures. Black people rate very high because culturally it's not acceptable for us to say we don't think well of ourselves. Right. So if you ask us, we're gonna say, I'm amazing. I'm fabulous. Right. We're gonna say these scripts.
But then when we look at how we live, how we treat ourselves, how we rest or don't rest, how we eat, what we do to medicate ourselves and I mean other things that are detrimental to our being, then we have to raise some questions of, am I really good with me? And often the answer is not. And while that can be jarring, that's the beginning of healing, is when I'm suddenly uncomfortable with living the life of this false self.
NK:
That's what happened to me. I felt like this, I have a relationship with this voice that kind of maybe was always there, but sort of felt as if it appeared kind of. And then became progressively louder and louder until I could not ignore it. And I sometimes think now that that voice has really quieted or when it appears I fucking am just sort of like, Allright, like, I know you now. You know, um, and I know that it's not telling the truth per se. But I did feel like it sort of it was like alarms going off, kind of like you can't continue, like how much longer you gonna, like, walk around with, like, the mask that you're wearing and like that. I was able to identify that a lot of my anxiety was just the pressure to maintain the mask and to like I was saying, that no one knew any of these things about me. I'm also really curious about, something you touched on which I also think about especially in making this work. Something that felt very one of the reasons it felt very risky and vulnerable was this understanding that, like some of the things I'm saying about myself are counter to how I'm supposed to talk about myself as a Black woman or what it means to be. It feels yeah like I'm not. I definitely have the feeling like I'm not supposed to admit that I have felt this way, I'm not supposed to admit that like oppression won, you know, or that I had internalized these things, that I had self-loathing thoughts, really. And I sometimes, like I said, I guess I see the discomfort with me having even before the podcast with me being some sort of self-deprecating. But now, like me exposing myself, I think there's I see some discomfort, sometimes I'm just curious, how do those two things work together, sort of like the individual desire or need to start that healing process work with the sort of cultural imperative to maybe, like, not talk about it so much?
Dr. Thema:
Absolutely. It is, as you said, when we discover it's unsustainable and in some ways we call people strong who can sustain it longer. But I am excited when someone shows up to therapy at 19. At 21. Like, do I have to wait till I'm 60 to heal? Like, until like it really, you know, I carried it as long as I could. But now I have decades of unpacked baggage. And the reality is. Even when we think we're holding it together, it comes out, it comes out even in our parenting. It comes out in our vocabulary. And even when we think, like, you know, I'm superwoman. If we talk to the people around you, they often would hope that you would heal. Right. And so what I asked myself when we think about being a role model is, is the way I am living. Not the way I appear, but the way I'm living. Is that what I want for my daughters? Like, do I really want Black girls to duplicate this? And like, how does it feel for real from the inside? And one of the pieces I think is coming, coming to terms with the truth that these opposites can coexist. So meaning to acknowledge my vulnerability does not mean I have no strength, that we, we possess all of it. So we are incredible and we're hurting. Right. So me acknowledging hurting or wounds does not erase that. Yeah, I've done some phenomenal things. Right. And that's humanity where we don't have to be robots or simply goddesses. Right. But that there are cracks in it. And and that is truth.
NK:
Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I feel I feel that way as well. Yeah. I have to remind myself that, like, one does not negate the other. It's all of me. And yeah. And also it makes me think of something else I want to talk about with regards to the process of self defining. I sometimes think of it as like integration. And like I think I'm integrating all these parts of myself. That have been, that I have been suppressing or that I pushed away or denigrated for whatever reason. I guess can you speak to what what that is? Well, when someone has sort of done this, has begun has embarked on the healing work, and maybe have gotten to a place where I am, where I'm like, OK, I've sort of feel like I've divested from people pleasing, but I'm in a place now where I'm like okay but like who? So, who am I? [laughs] which is exciting and fun. Like I said, I'm falling in love with myself like it is. It feels like a new relationship. It's exciting. But I guess I was curious, like, what do you have? What guidance would you offer to someone who's going about this strange process? [NK laughs]
Dr. Thema:
I would let them know, let us know that the journey doesn't stop with recognizing who I'm not, that that is only, that's a beginning. It's like when people come into counseling and I tell. I trained therapists who are studying at Pepperdine. And I tell them, you know, therapy doesn't end with what we call symptom cessation, meaning. Now, people aren't so depressed or they're not cutting or they're not getting high every day. Now they can get to work.
Right. But sometimes we think the absence of distress, active distress is wellness. So it's like, okay, I got these other voices out of my head. You know, the shoulds, everyone's saying, like, what I should be. And now, as you said, I get to explore and create who I am. And that's especially important for people who have grown up with these scripts and trauma since childhood, that it's not a return. Right. It's I never, I never knew her. Right. I never knew me. And so for some, that can be like, well, you know, how do you do that? Well, it is, we get to create it from scratch. And the reality also is. She, who is you, has been showing up all along in glimpses, so it is not absolutely from emptiness, right. That parts of our hopes, dreams, needs, fears have been peeking out but have been silenced. So it's not a total creation. It is a permission. I give myself permission to explore new aspects of myself and that will also come into fruition with like time is limited. Time is so sacred to me that you want to guard it and invest time in places and with people that cultivate you blossoming. You know that once you have gotten tired of shrinking, and masking, you know, you have to have your radar on. It's like, oh, and this place like masks are required. So I really have to like, minimize my time in this space. And so when I start to engage with people that stretch me or I start to attend these workshops that tap me into myself, then I'm being fed and I'm being nourished. And that's, that's my priority. So much, especially as women, we're taught to pour, you know, give, give, give, you know, to whom much is given, much is required, give, give, give and it's a lot of empty, resentful cups that are giving, from, from a broken place. And so this is the season. You say identity formation is the season for me receiving. And so if it doesn't feed me. No, thank you.
NK:
Wow. Okay, That was exciting. I feel like I'm maybe intuitively knowing this but it's nice to hear someone say that, that like okay because I feel like. And also, I was reminded of the day that I emailed you. I had listened to an episode, I forgot which episode it was but I definitely wrote down some some notes and one of them was pay attention to when you're when you put your mask back on. And like, what's going on in those situations? Can you learn to not have your mask in those scenarios? You know, for me, I think when I'm actually in when I'm in predominantly Black spaces, is when I tend to have the mask goes back on. And so that's my work to do. As I was like okay, that's an area where I like, I want to like stay in that space and practice not doing it. And the other areas I'm like only I don't need to spend my time there, you know. But it's really nice to hear that.
Dr. Thema:
Absolutely. And in our spaces there can be the pressure for the script or excellence. We say hashtag Black excellence hashtag Black girl magic. Right. What if I'm not feeling so magical today? What if I don't really feel excellent? And what I have discovered is so many of both our sisters and brothers are longing for places where they can tell the truth and so too, in some ways disrupt environments with truth. And while some will resist or be uncomfortable, many will gravitate. So sometimes being the trailblazer in our vulnerability, but you have to be in a certain place where you're free and comfortable and not invested in people's response. And I would say therapeutically it helps me to know that often people's surface response isn't the real response. So, you know, sometimes it's coming out of people's discomfort. And so to just lean into it. But we, you know, you decide what is what is the worst thing that could happen from this is that suddenly people are not going to think I'm perfect. Okay, right. And then what? And then what? So some people will just say, like, you need to, like, shake it off and get over it. And other people will say, like, oh, like me, too. That's the that's the beauty of us being transparent about our process is other people benefit. They do. They take it in to varying degrees.
NK:
This has been so lovely. Um, I have one more question really, and it's kind of optional. I've just been asking different Black women... [NK's voice fades out and we hear piano fade in gently]
Audre Lorde:
The erotic is a resource within each one of us that lives in a very deeply female and spiritual plane. It is firmly rooted in the power of all our unexpressed and unrecognized feelings, in order to perpetrate itself every oppression in our history must corrupt or distort those various sources of power within the culture of the oppressed. As, for instance, within our culture as women that can provide energy for change. But the erotic offers a well of replenishing and provocative force to any woman who does not fear its revelation nor succumb to the belief that sensation is enough.
Nina Simone:
I think what you're trying to ask is, why am I so insistent upon giving out to them that Blackness, that Black power, that Black pushing them to identify with Black culture?
Angela Davis:
I think that's what you're asking, is, is, I have no choice over it in the first place. To me, we are the most beautiful creatures in the whole world. Black people, I mean. And I mean that in every every sense. Outside and inside. And to me, we have a culture that is surpassed, by, by, by, by, no other civilization. But we don't know anything about it. So, again, I think I've said this before. In this same interview, I think sometime before my, my job is to somehow make them curious enough. Or persuade them by hook or crook to get more aware of themselves and where they came from and what they are into and what is already there. Just to bring it out. This is what compels me to compel them and I will do it by whatever means necessary. [beautiful piano continues]
Audre Lorde:
And the erotic is a measure between the beginnings of our sense of self and the chaos and power of our deepest feelings. It is an internal sense of satisfaction to which once we have experienced it, we know we can aspire once having experienced the fullness of this depth of feeling and recognized its power in honor and self-respect. We can require no less of ourselves.
Dr. Thema:
I will give two. So one is Lucille Clifton. Incredible African-American poet: "Come and celebrate with me that everyday something has tried to kill me and has failed."
NK:
[laughing] Damn.
Dr. Thema:
Every day! And that is the truth of the trauma and triumph, right? That there is so much designed to dismantle me and some of it has dented me, has had an impact. And I'm still here. Right. And the other one from a sacred place. My mom, Reverend Cecillia Bryant, wrote: "God is speaking, my life is God's vocabulary." And this gets at what you were saying about Audre Lorde, we are a sacred text, right? We are sacred beings. And so as we're living. What a truth that is being revealed in our lives and the other beautiful part about the idea of something being written by us and within us is each moment. We have an opportunity to turn the page. And I could not stop some people from writing on the pages of my life. And I now have the pen.
Kaitlyn Prest:
This episode was produced by Nicole Kelly, Chiquita Paschal edited the Divesting From People Pleasing series thanks to Asha Grant, Kamala Puligandla and Dr. Thema Bryant-Davis for chatting with NK for this episode. The voices you heard at the end were Nina Simone and Audre Lorde. The Heart is Nicole Kelly, Phoebe Unter, Sharon Mashihi and me, Kaitlin Prest. It is a production of Mermaid Palace and it is distributed by Radiotopia. The Heart is now a more than 10 years old queer feminist institution that once in that once in the long past, went by the name of Audio Smut, we encourage you to dive down deep into the feed and listen to the audio that we've done over the years. It's a trip and it's worth it. Thank you to my two first radio loves Jess Grossmann and Mitra Kaboli for being cornerstones in the foundation of the show that this has become. If you like, this show tell your friends we need listeners to keep the show alive. You can follow you can follow the heart at the heart radio on Instagram. You can follow me, at Kaitlyn Prest. If you love this work and you want to support it with your cash dollars, go to The Heart Radio dot org to donate. We would greatly appreciate it. Do follow Mermaid Palace Art on Instagram. Okay, that's it. Thanks for listening.
